BRYAN: Good evening. Tonight I’m talking to the man in charge of making sure journalists at our national broadcasters keep absolutely everything.

JOHN: Good evening, Bryan. Delighted to be here. Although I should mention I’m now legally required to retain a record of this conversation.

BRYAN: You’re required to retain this interview?

JOHN: Everything, Bryan. Every word. Every pause. Every awkward silence. It’s all going to the National Archives.

BRYAN: Can you explain to our viewers what’s happened?

JOHN: Certainly. The National Archives has issued a disposal freeze notice to the ABC and SBS in connection with the Royal Commission on Antisemitism and Social Cohesion.

BRYAN: And what does a disposal freeze mean, exactly?

JOHN: It means you can’t dispose of things, Bryan. The clue is very much in the name.

BRYAN: What sort of things?

JOHN: Records. Documents. Messages. Carrier pigeons. Anything relating to social cohesion, antisemitism, religious extremism, radicalisation, and the Bondi attack.

BRYAN: That’s quite a broad net.

JOHN: It’s a magnificent net, Bryan. You could trawl the Coral Sea with this net.

BRYAN: And this includes disappearing messages?

JOHN: Yes, well, this is the interesting part. We’ve told staff that messages on Signal and similar apps must no longer disappear.

BRYAN: But the whole point of disappearing messages is that they disappear.

JOHN: They did disappear, Bryan. They were wonderful at disappearing. World-class disappearing. But now they have to stop disappearing and start appearing. Permanently.

BRYAN: So journalists who use Signal to communicate confidentially with sources—

JOHN: Will need to keep those messages, yes.

BRYAN: But journalists use disappearing messages specifically to protect their sources.

JOHN: And they’ve been doing a marvellous job of it, Bryan. Really first-rate source protection. But now we need them to protect the messages as well.

BRYAN: Doesn’t that rather defeat the purpose of protecting the sources?

JOHN: Not at all. We’ve assured staff that the notice only requires the ABC to refrain from destroying relevant material. It doesn’t require production at this stage.

BRYAN: At this stage.

JOHN: At this stage, Bryan, yes.

BRYAN: What about the next stage?

JOHN: Well, if there’s a production request, we’ll carefully consider it in consultation with ABC Legal.

BRYAN: And what will ABC Legal do?

JOHN: They’ll conduct a care assessment.

BRYAN: A care assessment.

JOHN: A care assessment, Bryan, yes. Regarding confidentiality of sources.

BRYAN: What does a care assessment involve?

JOHN: Well, it involves assessing things. Carefully. With care.

BRYAN: Can you be more specific?

JOHN: I’m afraid I can’t, Bryan. We declined to respond when Crikey asked the same question.

BRYAN: You declined to respond to a question about how you’d protect journalists’ sources?

JOHN: We did, yes.

BRYAN: Doesn’t that rather undermine confidence in the care assessment?

JOHN: Bryan, I think you’ll find that declining to respond is one of the most carefully assessed responses available. It takes enormous care to say absolutely nothing.

BRYAN: The journalists’ union says its members are confused and worried.

JOHN: That’s understandable, Bryan. Confusion and worry are perfectly rational responses to a directive that asks you to keep a permanent record of your confidential communications in case the government wants to look at them later.

BRYAN: They say the ABC’s email ignores responsibilities to protect basic principles of journalism.

JOHN: I wouldn’t say we’ve ignored those principles, Bryan. We’re very much aware of them. We’ve just been asked to retain them in a filing cabinet alongside all the Signal messages.

BRYAN: How many other disposal freezes are currently in effect?

JOHN: Oh, quite a few, Bryan. Robodebt. Afghanistan. The disability royal commission. Child sexual abuse. The Vietnam War. Atomic bomb testing.

BRYAN: Atomic bomb testing?

JOHN: Yes. If you have any messages on Signal about atomic bomb testing conducted in Australia, Bryan, do not delete them.

BRYAN: I’ll bear that in mind. Now, the National Archives says the freeze only relates to Commonwealth records.

JOHN: That’s correct.

BRYAN: And when asked about source protection, they directed questions back to the ABC and SBS.

JOHN: They did.

BRYAN: And when we asked the ABC about source protection, you declined to respond.

JOHN: We did.

BRYAN: And the SBS?

JOHN: The SBS said they’re still working through the implementation and impacts.

BRYAN: So who is actually responsible for protecting journalists’ sources in all of this?

JOHN: That’s an excellent question, Bryan.

BRYAN: Is anyone going to answer it?

JOHN: We’re still working through the implementation and impacts of answering it.

BRYAN: This is a bit like a disappearing message, isn’t it? The accountability has just vanished.

JOHN: It has, Bryan, yes. But unfortunately, under the current disposal freeze, we’re required to retain a record of it vanishing.

BRYAN: Thank you very much for your time.

JOHN: Thank you, Bryan. And remember — this conversation has been permanently archived. My lawyers will be in touch about the care assessment.

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A tribute in the style of the late John Clarke and Bryan Dawe, whose ABC interviews illuminated Australian public life for over two decades.