Bryan Dawe: Thanks for your time, Prime Minister.

John Clarke: Always a pleasure, Bryan. Always happy to have a chat
about good government.

Dawe: Prime Minister, you’ve just promoted Greg Moriarty, the Defence
Secretary, to be Australia’s ambassador in Washington.

Clarke: That’s right, Bryan. It’s a strong appointment. It sends the
right message.

Dawe: Which message is that?

Clarke: That we take accountability very seriously in this government.

Dawe: By promoting the people you might otherwise hold accountable.

Clarke: No, no, you’ve misunderstood me completely there, Bryan, which
is understandable. When we reward someone after controversy, that’s
actually a form of discipline.

Dawe: It is.

Clarke: Oh yes. Canberra discipline. Much tougher than the normal kind.

Dawe: How does that work?

Clarke: Well, you move someone from a very powerful, poorly
scrutinised job in Defence to a very powerful, poorly scrutinised job
in Washington. That sends a strong signal.

Dawe: To whom?

Clarke: To everyone still in Canberra wondering how this system works.

Dawe: I see. What, in your view, qualifies Mr Moriarty for Washington?

Clarke: Experience, Bryan.

Dawe: In what exactly?

Clarke: In being there.

Dawe: In Washington?

Clarke: No, in the system. He’s been in the system a long time. You
need someone who understands how to move people around without anyone
ever quite leaving.

Dawe: So this is about continuity.

Clarke: Exactly. We went to the cupboard and asked, “Who truly
represents continuity?” and the cupboard replied, “Greg Moriarty.”

Dawe: Some people say he was deeply involved in decisions and cultures
that have since been criticised.

Clarke: That’s why he’s the right man for the job, Bryan. You can’t
send a novice to Washington. The Americans expect someone who’s seen a
few inquiries in their time.

Dawe: He understands scrutiny.

Clarke: He understands avoiding it, Bryan. That’s a valuable diplomatic skill.

Dawe: Did you consider anyone else?

Clarke: Oh yes, a wide field. We had a thorough process.

Dawe: What did that involve?

Clarke: We thought of some names and then picked the one we were going
to pick in the first place.

Dawe: And that was Mr Moriarty.

Clarke: After careful consideration, yes. And some phone calls.

Dawe: With whom?

Clarke: People who agreed with me.

Dawe: I notice, Prime Minister, that when there’s a scandal or a
controversial report, senior people don’t seem to go down. They go
sideways, or up.

Clarke: That’s unfair, Bryan. Sometimes they go diagonally.

Dawe: Diagonally.

Clarke: Yes. That’s when you move from one important job to a
different important job, possibly in another time zone, so that by the
time anyone finishes reading the report, you’re already at a cocktail
party with the US State Department.

Dawe: So Washington is… what? A demotion? A promotion?

Clarke: It’s a sideways-upwards transitional accountability enhancement.

Dawe: I see.

Clarke: Very modern. Very reformist.

Dawe: Some people might say it looks like rewarding failure.

Clarke: Only to people who don’t understand success, Bryan.

Dawe: How do you define success in Canberra?

Clarke: Survival. If you’re still there at the end of the royal
commission, that’s merit.

Dawe: And if you’re promoted?

Clarke: That’s outstanding merit.

Dawe: Did it worry you at all that this appointment might make people
think nothing has really changed?

Clarke: We’ve changed the letterhead, Bryan. It now says “Labor
Government” at the top. Completely different culture.

Dawe: But the people?

Clarke: They’re very experienced. You don’t want inexperienced people
running the same old system. It wouldn’t be safe.

Dawe: So to change the system, you keep the same people.

Clarke: Exactly. They know where everything is.

Dawe: Including the bodies.

Clarke: Well, the filing cabinets, Bryan. Let’s keep it collegial.

Dawe: Why Washington specifically? Why not, say, a quiet role in a smaller post?

Clarke: Because that would look like a punishment, and we’re not about
punishment. We’re about learning.

Dawe: Learning.

Clarke: Yes. We send them to Washington to learn how valued they are.

Dawe: Who learns that?

Clarke: Everyone watching.

Dawe: The Americans are very keen on your AUKUS arrangements. Was that a factor?

Clarke: It’s important to send someone who is deeply invested in AUKUS, Bryan.

Dawe: So deeply invested they helped design it.

Clarke: Well, yes, that’s optimal. You don’t want someone going over
to Washington and asking whether it’s all a good idea.

Dawe: You want someone who already knows it’s a good idea.

Clarke: Precisely. It saves time.

Dawe: So Mr Moriarty will represent Australia’s interests by
representing the policy he helped create.

Clarke: That’s what we call alignment.

Dawe: Others might call it conflict of interest.

Clarke: Only if they’re not on the email chain, Bryan.

Dawe: Prime Minister, you came to office promising integrity and a
different way of doing politics.

Clarke: And we’ve delivered that.

Dawe: By doing things the same way.

Clarke: But with a more serious expression.

Dawe: I see. So the difference between old politics and new politics
is the facial expression.

Clarke: And the press release. The fonts are different now.

Dawe: Fonts.

Clarke: Very modern fonts. That’s reform.

Dawe: What do you say to public servants down the line who see someone
implicated in controversy going to Washington and think, “That’s the
career path”?

Clarke: I say to them: work hard, keep your head down, and one day, if
there’s enough public outrage, you too could be posted somewhere very
nice.

Dawe: On a very good salary.

Clarke: Well, it’s not about the money, Bryan, it’s about service.

Dawe: To whom?

Clarke: To the alliance.

Dawe: The US alliance.

Clarke: The only alliance that really matters, Bryan.

Dawe: And the Australian public?

Clarke: They’re very supportive once we’ve explained it to them.

Dawe: Have you explained it to them?

Clarke: We’ve issued a statement.

Dawe: Saying what?

Clarke: That Greg is highly qualified. And we’re not taking any
further questions.

Dawe: That’s the explanation.

Clarke: That’s transparency.

Dawe: Prime Minister, thank you for your time.

Clarke: Thank you, Bryan. You don’t know anyone who’d want to work
closely with Richard Marles, do you? We’ll need a new Secretary of Defence.
Needs to be good at signing cheques.